Dorenko: One of the aspiring presidential
candidates is with us here today. I say "aspiring", to
prevent the Central Electoral Commission (CEC) from becoming
angry with us (Ed. At the time Yavlinsky had not been
approved by the CEC as a candidate). This is not propaganda.
It is simply interesting to listen to an acting politician.
All these introductions are made specially for the CEC.
We aren’t breaching any rules, are we?
Yavlinsky: I hope not.
Dorenko: I would like to hear your
comments on this poll. I have always liked mathematics:
I learned it at school. I think that your rating in this
poll is approximately about 176.6 times lower than that
of Putin. Is there any sense in competing? What do you
attribute this gap to? You have been in politics for a
long time already…
Yavlinsky: Yes, that is true. I don’t
know whether I now have 3% or 23%. But I know - if you
are asking me about Putin - that he has such a team and
such large resources to commit the same mistakes again.
So if we meet in this studio again in a month and a half,
we will see what has happened to his ratings by then,
provided that they are measured correctly. Raising vodka
prices, some steps with military training of the reserves,
even larger success in some other fields and exchanges
of some citizens on the other hand. All this is a huge
resource of the Kremlin administration. I think that we
have a month and a half to go.
Dorenko: You have been speaking about
the advantages of being in opposition. But the authorities
also have the resources to punish ministers. As Yeltsin
did.
Yavlinsky: I don’t know. However, everything
I mentioned resembles opposition to your own country.
You have been governing the country for six months already
and adopt such decisions… or don’t adopt any decisions,
so that for example prices grow or many people die in
the anti-terrorist operation and the war goes on. We are
seeing many things like this. That is why I am referring
in my answer to what may happen in this month and a half
and what has already happened.
Dorenko: Are you relying on some negative
steps by Putin, i.e. do you think that Putin will get
caught in a trap somehow? I mean you are counting on Putin’s
problems, rather than on the positive aspects of your
programme and your participation. Did I understand you
correctly?
Yavlinsky: No. In actual fact the presidential
campaign has not started yet, and Putin and I are in principally
different positions. He has been acting President for
six months already. So this is already the seventh month
that he has the opportunity to tell the country what he
can do and how and mention what he considers proper to
tell. He talks in detail about some things, he promises
to do something, he tells us one thing, and then something
quite different happens. He can do this. But after collecting
signatures, I must wait eight more days before I am registered
and only then will I be able to tell the people about
my programme.
Dorenko: But today everybody knows
that Yavlinsky is a presidential candidate. And this is
not your first time, is it?
Yavlinsky: That is true
Dorenko: So people are used to it
and you can’t claim that your standing as a presidential
candidate begins from X-day. You have never concealed
your desire to participate in these elections.
Yavlinsky: This is true.
Dorenko: According to these criteria,
you have been assessed as a presidential candidate.
Yavlinsky: This is true. But a certain
era - the era of Yeltsin’s rule, is over. The era when
I thought that everything you said was essential in politics
is over. Now a new era is beginning. I think that the
essential thing concerns what will be done. What will
Yeltsin’s heritage be? Today the main feeling in the society
is concern. Today words must be replaced by deeds. It
has become needless to simply throw mud. Definite questions
must be answered about what the country should do today.
Dorenko: Don’t you think – and this
is my point of view, as I try to watch television as rarely
as possible, but sometimes fail, as my family watch it,
I come home and the TV set is switched on – that the surroundings
are artificially created, that Putin is ascribed some
failures, such as the bad weather, flu and the exchange
of Babitsky. How is he connected to all this?
Yavlinsky: What are you saying!
Dorenko: It is interesting to learn
your position.
Yavlinsky: You probably watch television
too rarely.
Dorenko: I try not to watch it at
all.
Yavlinsky: Maybe you listened to Vladimir
Zhyrinovsky. Watch television, and then you will learn
that Putin initially assumed responsibility for the exchange
of Babitsky, then his assistant went there, and then he
absolves himself of responsibility. That is why people
speak about him.
Dorenko: I would like to know, and
about this issue in particular, as I have not spoken out
on this issue yet and I think that there is much hypocrisy
here. As far as I know, several hundred exchanges have
been made. Why has this case been made out to be something
special?
Yavlinsky: I don’t know Babitsky personally.
Dorenko: Neither do I.
Yavlinsky: But I can tell you that, as
everyone knows, bandits often exchange hostages. But when
the state exchanges one citizen for another, this is inadmissible,
as the leader of the state, as well as the state in general,
is responsible for each citizen.
Dorenko: Then can we say that Chechnians
are not citizens of Russia? I meant exactly this.
Yavlinsky: Chechnians, who are not terrorists
or bandits, even those who are, are citizens of Russia
and the law affects them all.
Dorenko: So we should say that these
citizens of Russia have been exchanged for Russian military
at least several dozen times over the past six years.
For even an amnesty was granted and they were released
from prisons. I mean that terrorists wrote letters, as
in the case of Babitsky, requesting the releasing of such
and such a person from prison and in exchange for certain.
I know this, as yesterday the Member of the Pardon Commission
Evgenia Albatz talked about this on one of the radio programmes,
that she personally voted and signed, etc. Are these people
worse than Babitsky? Why did no one raised his voice against
this? Are they not our citizens? Or maybe the ethnic issue
is essential – Babitsky is better, because he is not a
Chechnian?
Yavlinsky: I expressed my opinion on
this issue. I can only add that the exchange of soldiers
fighting for different sides is not the same as an exchange
for an unarmed journalist. There is a big difference.
Dorenko: A journalist or a citizen?
Yavlinsky: This is the same thing. He
is a journalist and a citizen.
Dorenko: He is an American journalist.
Yavlinsky: I don’t know about that. He
is a journalist in Russia.
Dorenko: But he works at "Svoboda"
radio station.
Yavlinsky: This is the same as if I asked
you, "whom do you work for"?
Dorenko: At once I can see here many
problems and our viewer can see many problems here too.
Firstly, he is a journalist, and previously the authorities
could do whatever they wanted and no one raised his voice
against it, which is in my opinion shameful, and this
has been going on for six years already… but it is different
when a journalist or journalists do this out of solidarity.
Secondly, he works for the American mass media and pro-American
forces, the Embassy, or Madeleine Albright, that people
who sympathise with the US do it. Thirdly, this is its
ethnical component. I merely wanted to draw your attention
to one of the key comments here today. Yuri Luzhkov said:
"I find it hard to understand why we exchange, on the
decision of the state or the state authorities which represent
the state, one Russian individual for another." Which
of these components is more important? If he is a citizen,
then you should have said before that citizens are not
to be exchanged for other citizens, also when they are
Chechnians.
Yavlinsky: I have already told you everything
that I intended to say. I shall return to this topic,
when, and God save us from this, you are exchanged for
someone after March 26 (Ed. the date of presidential elections),
when the circumstances are such that Babitsky will have
to be returned, when values change, and the state will
grab you in the street and start exchanging you for someone
else. I am principally against all this, and the fact
that this was done to other citizens of Russia does not
…
Dorenko: So you simply did not know
about all this?
Yavlinsky: I would like to stress once
again: irrespective of the citizens of Russia that the
state would exchange for other citizens, I realise the
price of the letters that these citizens write in different
cases (Ed. letters asking to exchange them for other people,
as in the Babitsky case). If a person is offered a gun
and they say, "You can shoot yourself", do you think that
he should do it, if the militia makes such a proposal
to him? I would like to say once again: an exchange of
Russia’s citizens implies that these people are thrown
out of the country and out of life. That is what our state
is doing now.
Dorenko: Absolutely correct.
Yavlinsky: I think my view on whether
a citizen exists for the state or the state exists for
the citizen differs from that of the present authorities.
People create a state to be protected and helped by that
state. But it transpires that the state can exchange them.
By the way, he is also a taxpayer…
Dorenko: But this is another…
Yavlinsky: He maintains the people who
decided on his exchange. He maintains the Presidential
Aide who grasped him and exchanged him for someone else.
Could you tell me who is responsible today for the fate
of a citizen of the Russian Federation? Maybe you know
who took these decisions on the exchange?
Dorenko: First and foremost the executive
authorities.
Yavlinsky: And what does the term executive
authorities mean? Tell me the names. I know that a Presidential
Aide was there. Now can you tell me who else was there?
Dorenko: I tried to answer this question.
OK, let me tell you – you and me. For six years we kept
silent when Chechnians were exchanged. This is a normal
and usual practice in Russia.
Yavlinsky: I…
Dorenko: You kept silent.
Yavlinsky: I repeat once again – we know
for a fact that an individual who signed a written promise
that he would not leave Moscow, and who was kept in the
Public Prosecutor’s office, and who faced charges, who
had to be brought to Moscow, but was suddenly exchanged
for nobody knows whom, disappeared. You can find all the
other people who were exchanged before and they can come
here and tell you about it.
Dorenko: Not at all.
Yavlinsky: Maybe.
Dorenko: We have not followed their
fates.
Yavlinsky: I have told you everything.
I would not like to think that a time will come, when
other journalists will be exchanged.
Dorenko: I hope that we won’t take
their side owing to our own racism.
Yavlinsky: I don’t understand what you
are talking about.
Dorenko: I mean that no one took the
side of the Chechnians. Ok. I don’t know whether we are
allowed to speak about your electoral platform, so that
the Central Electoral Commission won’t take an offence.
They are so easy to hurt…
Yavlinsky: I think that the "Ministry
of Democracy" is on the alert.
Dorenko: Ok. I wanted to learn about
your position on Chechnya, because we have already touched
on trade with hostages. I have always thought this to
be shameful. What do think about this now: should the
operation should be continued or should we stop, or should
we retreat to the Terek river?
Yavlinsky: Do I take it correctly that
you think that the trade of the hostage Babitsky is shameful
for the Russian state? Do I understand you correctly?
Dorenko: A thousand such hostages as
Babitsky.
Yavlinsky: Do I understand you correctly?
Dorenko: Absolutely.
Yavlinsky: Ok. Now, about the plan for
Chechnya.
Dorenko: By the way, were you going
to become a hostage yourself?
Yavlinsky: I am glad that you asked this
question about developments in Chechnya. I think that
a critical moment is coming and I would like to tell you
that a large group of people have prepared a detailed
plan about regulating the situation in Chechnya. And I
hope in the nearest time to hand this plan to the acting
President and explain specific features to him. I think
that this may be even more important now than it has ever
been.
Dorenko: Has your party done this?
Yavlinsky: No, this was not done by a
party, this was done by a large group of people, I think
that they are the best experts in this field.
Dorenko: I would also like to learn
about the potential support that you may obtain. Today
we have expected the most incredible things from "Fatherland":
people have been saying that "Fatherland" will give its
support to someone and that everyone will be surprised.
I think that the most surprising and natural result would
be for them to support Putin. It would be very funny.
I thought that they could support you. Your real ratings,
after you announce your programme, make a country tour,
I think that you are definitely guaranteed the number
three spot. Serious analysts have been saying this. And
the opposition could make you the blade of the knife or
an axe. To axe…
Yavlinsky: You should ask them…
Dorenko: Today Chilingarov has said
that your programme does not suit them…
Yavlinsky: Chilingarov? Maybe my programme
really does not suit Chilingarov. That would not be a
big surprise for me.
Dorenko: To what extent could you rely
on these people?
Yavlinsky: At recent elections I represented
my party, and together with the party we obtained 6% of
the vote. This time I represent not only my party, but
also all the non-communist, non-bandit and intelligent
part of Russia. And I include Chilingarov here. When we
begin the campaign, you’ll get all the answers on your
questions.
Dorenko: I have always thought that
Zyuganov is the ideological enemy, but you include him
in a bandit Russia.
Yavlinsky: I said "non-communist and non-bandit".
Dorenko: Do they all support you?
Yavlinsky: Zyuganov? Dorenko: No, the non-communist and
non-bandit Russia.
Yavlinsky: I think that I will manage
to obtain this support. And in a month when we meet in
your studio, you will agree with me on this issue.
Dorenko: In a month? In a month little
time will be left before the elections. I think that we
must in any case meet before the elections, when you are
registered as a presidential candidate and when you offer
your plan on Chechnya, as I think the integrity of Russia
and the best way of preserving the country are a principal
matter.
Yavlinsky: Absolutely right.
Dorenko: No candidate can be elected
before he explains his views on this issue.
Yavlinsky: I hope that I to manage to
explain this plan to Putin.
Dorenko: So that he becomes President
and implements the plan?
Yavlinsky: No, so that we implement the
plan in Russia
Dorenko: Would you agree to work as
Prime Minister under Putin?
Yavlinsky: Given his present policy –
no.
Dorenko: Who would you make Prime
Minister, if you win the elections?
Yavlinsky: You always try to make me quarrel
with the Central Electoral Commission.
Dorenko: No, I want the elections
to go ahead
Yavlinsky: But you have just said that
you will have no work then. You are after Zhirinovsky,
and Zhirinovsky will conduct the programme instead of
you.
Dorenko: If one candidate remains,
this will be simply laughable, as you can understand.
A Duma, which is fighting for nobody, knows that this
would be laughable. All this policy would be laughable,
because the scope is incomparable. It is incomparable
when it exceeds 17 times (Ed. Putin’s rating). It is comparable,
but painfully comparable. That is why I say that this
whole scene will die off.
Yavlinsky: I think that you and I will
be able to discuss the issue about the rightful owner
of the premiership, if you feel too bored here.
Dorenko: Thank you.
